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joe biden

Chain ban criteria?

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Half my accounts got banned in the span of one hour. Prior to this, 0 got banned in 3 days. 

This suggests it was a chain ban. The accounts were made and trained on the same IP they botted on, so it wasn't an IP-based chain ban.

My question is: what ways does jagex chain ban other than IP?

Would they chain ban by ingame area, bond time, ISP? Any ideas?

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5 minutes ago, joe biden said:

Half my accounts got banned in the span of one hour. Prior to this, 0 got banned in 3 days. 

This suggests it was a chain ban. The accounts were made and trained on the same IP they botted on, so it wasn't an IP-based chain ban.

My question is: what ways does jagex chain ban other than IP?

Would they chain ban by ingame area, bond time, ISP? Any ideas?

Were they all running on the same computer? I've a suspicion that hardware configuration could play a role in detecting bot farms, but no hard evidence yet. 

It could also be that they were all associated with the same mule. Did they all trade the same mule recently, or were they linked through trades to the same account?

Finally it could have something to do with all your accounts getting flagged at different times, and then all being banned simultaneously during a banwave. This could be especially true if your accounts all use the same script and the script is also heavily used by others or is very detectable in some way.

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13 minutes ago, joe biden said:

My question is: what ways does jagex chain ban other than IP? 

At least in my experience, accounts get linked together either because they are connecting from the same IP address or because they have traded with each other in an unusual manner (supplying the same items to bots, multiple trades in a shot time-span, large amounts of wealth being transferred etc. ).

The latter, although it occurs much less frequently, can have disastrous effects because it's almost unpredictable and you can lose mule accounts that you haven't even botted on.

 

Edited by Einstein

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1 minute ago, IceKontroI said:

Were they all running on the same computer? I've a suspicion that hardware configuration could play a role in detecting bot farms, but no hard evidence yet. 

It could also be that they were all associated with the same mule. Did they all trade the same mule recently, or were they linked through trades to the same account?

Finally it could have something to do with all your accounts getting flagged at different times, and then all being banned simultaneously during a banwave. This could be especially true if your accounts all use the same script and the script is also heavily used by others or is very detectable in some way.

Running on separate virtual machines, yet all the same ISP (hence I think this may be a factor)

Mule is not a factor. we clean the money very thoroughly and never make direct contact with the mule, we use other methods to xfer

Finally, I have considered each getting banned isolated from the other, but I have 50 bots, and only 20 got banned. They all run the same script yet 30 survive somehow? There is no obvious correlation between the 20 got banned (some got membs 2 weeks ago, some got membs yesterday, etc)

Also the script isn't a well known moneymaking method (it's my own script)

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Einstein said:

At least in my experience, accounts get linked together either because they are connecting from the same IP address or because they have traded with each other in an unusual manner (supplying the same items to bots, multiple trades in a shot time-span, large amounts of wealth being transferred etc. ).

The latter, although it occurs much less frequently, can have disastrous effects because it's almost unpredictable and you can lose mule accounts that you haven't even botted on.

 

I really don't think IP is the factor as everything was exclusively done on a new IP (acc creation, verification, tutorial, running).

As for the latter, I trade the same amount of resources to each bot to fund them, would they be able to pick up this pattern of the same amount of items given? Seems a bit advanced for jagex 

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Just now, joe biden said:

Running on separate virtual machines, yet all the same ISP (hence I think this may be a factor)

With Java it's pretty obvious whether or not you're running the app on a VM. Plus on a VM, a lot of the hardware stays the same as the main PC.

2 minutes ago, joe biden said:

Mule is not a factor. we clean the money very thoroughly and never make direct contact with the mule, we use other methods to xfer

Jagex has shifted focus to transfer methods like staking so that could still be a factor.

2 minutes ago, joe biden said:

Finally, I have considered each getting banned isolated from the other, but I have 50 bots, and only 20 got banned. They all run the same script yet 30 survive somehow? There is no obvious correlation between the 20 got banned (some got membs 2 weeks ago, some got membs yesterday, etc)

If this is your first run session, then maybe you don't have enough data to draw any major conclusions. I would recommend keeping track of the bans in a spreadsheet and trying to figure out if there's a pattern behind the ban waves.

Alternatively you can observe the script and see if there's anything it does abnormally. Also does it have TRiBot's antiban compliance built-in? ABC is crucial to staying under the radar, especially in scripts that can really implement the important features like hovering.

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2 minutes ago, IceKontroI said:

With Java it's pretty obvious whether or not you're running the app on a VM. Plus on a VM, a lot of the hardware stays the same as the main PC.

Jagex has shifted focus to transfer methods like staking so that could still be a factor.

If this is your first run session, then maybe you don't have enough data to draw any major conclusions. I would recommend keeping track of the bans in a spreadsheet and trying to figure out if there's a pattern behind the ban waves.

Alternatively you can observe the script and see if there's anything it does abnormally. Also does it have TRiBot's antiban compliance built-in? ABC is crucial to staying under the radar, especially in scripts that can really implement the important features like hovering.

I've been running these 50 bots with much success for weeks. For 7 days with no breaks, 0 got banned. 3 days ago most of them got banned, so I refilled back to 50. Three more days pass, and then a half are gone today. It's odd because if they survived so long before on the same exact script, I'm wondering if it's beyond the script?

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Just now, joe biden said:

I've been running these 50 bots with much success for weeks. For 7 days with no breaks, 0 got banned. 3 days ago most of them got banned, so I refilled back to 50. Three more days pass, and then a half are gone today. It's odd because if they survived so long before on the same exact script, I'm wondering if it's beyond the script?

OK I think I understand better now. This is speculative, but here's the theory. For new scripts that are not super botlike you can pretty much bot 24/7 for maybe a week before you start to see bans. After that, you get to see the "true" banrate of your script since Jagex has learned the activity patterns of that script.

Are you running these accounts 24/7 with no breaks? Cause there's your problem right there. I'm almost certain that running your bots for long periods of time is at least a contributing factor for bans.

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7 minutes ago, IceKontroI said:

OK I think I understand better now. This is speculative, but here's the theory. For new scripts that are not super botlike you can pretty much bot 24/7 for maybe a week before you start to see bans. After that, you get to see the "true" banrate of your script since Jagex has learned the activity patterns of that script.

Are you running these accounts 24/7 with no breaks? Cause there's your problem right there. I'm almost certain that running your bots for long periods of time is at least a contributing factor for bans.

Do you know if 24/7 running is ip-based or account based? In other words, do you reckon it'd be viable to alternate accounts every 12 hours (on the same ip and machine)? Playtime may be a factor since I did run 24/7. I was very surprised they lasted 7 days, so everything I believed about breaking went out the window, but i'm beginning to believe it may be a factor

Edited by joe biden

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3 minutes ago, joe biden said:

Do you know if 24/7 running is ip-based or account based? In other words, do you reckon it'd be viable to alternate accounts every 12 hours (on the same ip and machine)? Playtime may be a factor since I did run 24/7. I was very surprised they lasted 7 days, so everything I believed about breaking went out the window, but i'm beginning to believe it may be a factor

It's possible you'll get good results. If you do try it I would recommend this: 25 IP addresses with method A (12 hours on, 12 hours off). And 25 IPs with method B (12 hours one account, 12 hours another).

I would be interested to know the results of this experiment should you attempt it.

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Just now, IceKontroI said:

It's possible you'll get good results. If you do try it I would recommend this: 25 IP addresses with method A (12 hours on, 12 hours off). And 25 IPs with method B (12 hours one account, 12 hours another).

I would be interested to know the results of this experiment should you attempt it.

I'll let you know, I'll likely experiment this

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18 minutes ago, joe biden said:

I have considered each getting banned isolated from the other, but I have 50 bots, and only 20 got banned. They all run the same script yet 30 survive somehow? There is no obvious correlation between the 20 got banned

When you get a real chain ban, almost all of your bots and mules get banned. 20 out of 50 doesn't look like a chain ban, this is just your script's detection rate.

Bots are often banned in waves, at fixed intervals, which can give the illusion that they have been linked together, although they haven't. This could be a plausible explanation for your surviving accounts - they simply haven't been detected yet.

I'm not sure if this is Jagex's psychological warfare or they actually have a logical reason to do that (i.e. banning bots in waves, at fixed intervals).

 

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13 minutes ago, Einstein said:

I'm not sure if this is Jagex's psychological warfare or they actually have a logical reason to do that (i.e. banning bots in waves, at fixed intervals).

It's possible Jagex doesn't have a dynamic system set up to tell the client what account names have been newly blacklisted (banned), so they need to build up a list periodically and then push that list to the server in one batch. At least this seems to me like the sort of outdated mechanic Jagex is likely to deploy in their backend.

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23 minutes ago, IceKontroI said:

It's possible Jagex doesn't have a dynamic system set up to tell the client what account names have been newly blacklisted (banned), so they need to build up a list periodically and then push that list to the server in one batch. At least this seems to me like the sort of outdated mechanic Jagex is likely to deploy in their backend.

I wouldn't surprise me ?

I originally thought that they were manually looking at the data gathered by their system before pushing the button, but that doesn't make much sense since they almost certainly keep the data for future reference and could simply take a look at it afterwards. Either way, I am almost 100% certain that human input is still required in some way or another, at some point in the banning process.

 

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13 minutes ago, Einstein said:

Either way, I am almost 100% certain that human input is still required in some way or another, at some point in the banning process.

You know I might have found a small preview into what form the human input takes. It's just a theory but it seems plausible.

I've noticed that sometimes my bot will get "stuck" and can't perform any actions in-game that interact with the actual world. It can navigate the game tabs no problem, but it can't arrange items in its inventory, hop worlds, etc. I've noticed this on a few rare occasions, and often after this happens, the day after the accounts is banned.

My theory is that this is an evaluation period set up by Jagex's automatic bot detection software. They find accounts that are likely botting and freeze the account's input to see how it reacts. A real player would try a whole bunch of things, like clicking many different game tiles and RSNPCs/RSObjects, attempting to hop worlds or log out, type messages in chat, etc. A bot will just mindlessly click the same in-game entity repeatedly until the input went through. After the freeze, it seems that all the actions you tried to do get queued up and performed quickly.

If this process gets recorded, then all the moderator needs to do is sit at his desk during work hours and watch the footage. This could support the idea that not botting during Jagex work hours isn't impactful.

#conspiracy

Edited by IceKontroI

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2 minutes ago, IceKontroI said:

You know I might have found a small preview into what form the human input takes. It's just a theory but it seems plausible.

I've noticed that sometimes my bot will get "stuck" and can't perform any actions in-game that interact with the actual world. It can navigate the game tabs no problem, but it can't arrange items in its inventory, hop worlds, etc. I've noticed this on a few rare occasions, and often after this happens, the day after the accounts is banned.

My theory is that this is an evaluation period set up by Jagex's automatic bot detection software. They find accounts that are likely botting and freeze the account's input to see how it reacts. A real player would try a whole bunch of things, like clicking many different game tiles and RSNPCs/RSObjects, attempting to hop worlds or log out, type messages in chat, etc. A bot will just mindlessly click the same in-game entity repeatedly until the input went through. After the freeze, it seems that all the actions you tried to do get queued up and performed quickly.

If this process gets recorded, then all the moderator needs to do is sit at his desk during work hours and watch the footage. This could support the idea that not botting during Jagex work hours isn't impactful.

only use working premium bots.

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9 minutes ago, IceKontroI said:

You know I might have found a small preview into what form the human input takes. It's just a theory but it seems plausible.

I've noticed that sometimes my bot will get "stuck" and can't perform any actions in-game that interact with the actual world. It can navigate the game tabs no problem, but it can't arrange items in its inventory, hop worlds, etc. I've noticed this on a few rare occasions, and often after this happens, the day after the accounts is banned.

My theory is that this is an evaluation period set up by Jagex's automatic bot detection software. They find accounts that are likely botting and freeze the account's input to see how it reacts. A real player would try a whole bunch of things, like clicking many different game tiles and RSNPCs/RSObjects, attempting to hop worlds or log out, type messages in chat, etc. A bot will just mindlessly click the same in-game entity repeatedly until the input went through. After the freeze, it seems that all the actions you tried to do get queued up and performed quickly.

If this process gets recorded, then all the moderator needs to do is sit at his desk during work hours and watch the footage. This could support the idea that not botting during Jagex work hours isn't impactful.

#conspiracy

they ban up to 18k bots a day, if there was a freeze period they wouldn't have the time to watch every bot. I think you may be onto something though, I have ran into these freezing instances before and just attributed it to the client. Maybe they freeze and then test repetitive actions (for example, spam lay box trap if you're a chin bot)

edit: my figures may be off about 18k bots, i just remember Acorn saying something about "banned 18k bots today" 

Edited by joe biden

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1 minute ago, joe biden said:

they ban up to 18k bots a day, if there was a freeze period they wouldn't have the time to watch every bot. I think you may be onto something though, I have ran into these freezing instances before and just attributed it to the client. Maybe they freeze and then test repetitive actions (for example, spam lay box trap if you're a chin bot)

You've noticed this too? When it happens to me, my player can't do anything, but other players or NPCs in the viewport carry on as usual, does this happen for you as well?

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2 minutes ago, IceKontroI said:

I've noticed that sometimes my bot will get "stuck" and can't perform any actions in-game that interact with the actual world. It can navigate the game tabs no problem, but it can't arrange items in its inventory, hop worlds, etc. I've noticed this on a few rare occasions, and often after this happens, the day after the accounts is banned.

My theory is that this is an evaluation period set up by Jagex's automatic bot detection software. They find accounts that are likely botting and freeze the account's input to see how it reacts. A real player would try a whole bunch of things, like clicking many different game tiles and RSNPCs/RSObjects, attempting to hop worlds or log out, type messages in chat, etc. A bot will just mindlessly click the same in-game entity repeatedly until the input went through. After the freeze, it seems that all the actions you tried to do get queued up and performed quickly.

 

Interesting, it could definitely be one of the methods used to determine the likelihood of your account being a bot, since it's very reliable (most humans have a very strong reaction when the game is unresponsive). However this is probably just a single factor from the tens of even hundreds of factors that their system is constantly monitoring on player accounts.

I'm sure that human input is required somewhere in the process, but in a sense that they manually ban batches of thousands of accounts at once, by clicking a button (accounts that have been collected by their automated system). There is no way they are going for each account individually, the player base is way too large for this task to even be considered a viable solution.

They probably go 1 on 1 when they have very specific, high-profile targets, such as gold shop mules, bug abusers, hackers etc.

 

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4 minutes ago, joe biden said:

yes. Might be good antiban to add human-like reactions if forcefully idle

I've been wanting to do that, like add a rotation of different things to try if your input is frozen. The trick would be detecting the freeze though, since it's so rare to catch it in the act.

2 minutes ago, Einstein said:

There is no way they are going for each account individually, the player base is way too large for this task to even be considered a viable solution.

Yeah there's no way they're manually banning peoples F2P bot armies, those are probably the bulk of the ban statistics we're seeing in these Jmod tweets.

There are certainly many other things Jagex can use to catch bots. One thing I noticed which seems to be TRiBot specific is if the account has had the Grand Exchange interface open for long periods of time, that interface would sometimes close all by itself. Then because TRiBot's AI antiban has an "examine entity" component that is on a timer, and since the player can't examine entities while the GE menu is open, upon self-closing the player would IMMEDIATELY examine something since the timer was always past a trigger threshold and was constantly waiting for an opportunity to examine something.

I'm sure there are tons of little things like this that Jagex has devised over the years.

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3 hours ago, IceKontroI said:

I've been wanting to do that, like add a rotation of different things to try if your input is frozen. The trick would be detecting the freeze though, since it's so rare to catch it in the act.

Yeah there's no way they're manually banning peoples F2P bot armies, those are probably the bulk of the ban statistics we're seeing in these Jmod tweets.

There are certainly many other things Jagex can use to catch bots. One thing I noticed which seems to be TRiBot specific is if the account has had the Grand Exchange interface open for long periods of time, that interface would sometimes close all by itself. Then because TRiBot's AI antiban has an "examine entity" component that is on a timer, and since the player can't examine entities while the GE menu is open, upon self-closing the player would IMMEDIATELY examine something since the timer was always past a trigger threshold and was constantly waiting for an opportunity to examine something.

I'm sure there are tons of little things like this that Jagex has devised over the years.

Ive noticed something similar to this with my few accounts that i run fishing, they all seem to have examined the same amount of objects within the same time frame.

ie  hour and a half runtime ill have like exactly 5 examine infos in the chatbox on each account

 

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4 hours ago, IceKontroI said:

You know I might have found a small preview into what form the human input takes. It's just a theory but it seems plausible.

I've noticed that sometimes my bot will get "stuck" and can't perform any actions in-game that interact with the actual world. It can navigate the game tabs no problem, but it can't arrange items in its inventory, hop worlds, etc. I've noticed this on a few rare occasions, and often after this happens, the day after the accounts is banned.

My theory is that this is an evaluation period set up by Jagex's automatic bot detection software. They find accounts that are likely botting and freeze the account's input to see how it reacts. A real player would try a whole bunch of things, like clicking many different game tiles and RSNPCs/RSObjects, attempting to hop worlds or log out, type messages in chat, etc. A bot will just mindlessly click the same in-game entity repeatedly until the input went through. After the freeze, it seems that all the actions you tried to do get queued up and performed quickly.

If this process gets recorded, then all the moderator needs to do is sit at his desk during work hours and watch the footage. This could support the idea that not botting during Jagex work hours isn't impactful.

#conspiracy

I've experienced this freezing quite a few times, unable to speak/move the camera etc and always restart the client quite soon after it happens, guess its a good way to check if someone is there

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5 hours ago, Goo0d said:

I've experienced this freezing quite a few times, unable to speak/move the camera etc and always restart the client quite soon after it happens, guess its a good way to check if someone is there

this needs an antiban id love to see it implemented ;) 

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