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ineu

Bug reporting and general scripter responsibilities

9 posts in this topic

I'm going to keep this short as I can but I think it's worth saying:

I work as a software developer in the server hosting industry and I can speak from experience that trying to off-load Q/A testing to your customers is immoral. The software delivered is always as-is and to leave it up to the customer to find your bugs, write detailed bug reports, and generally 'work for you' is a quick way to lose your customer base. I'm not saying being detailed when it comes to asking your customers to describe a bug to you is a bad thing but it is time consuming, and when the bugs you're currently dealing with prevent your customer from using the software, that's when we run into problems..

This paradigm is also recognizable with a lot of scripts and their script providers on this site. It seems to me that some people on this site, I won't name names, are doing the exact thing I just described. You write up your code without testing it farther than a 5-min run through, because you think, well I'm a developer, I know what I wrote is logically sound, it worked at first glance, and it's not my job to Q/A. Well guess what, you don't have a Q/A team! I'm not going to tell you what to do and how to run your business, but I want to point out to you that not only is it frustrating to have developers like this in the community that write faulty code, but it's time consuming for other people and lowers the standard of premium scripts. People pay for your code. It is YOUR responsibility to test your own code and make sure it works for longer than at least an hour, I mean come on man... If you can't do that, it would probably benefit you to hire someone that can.

I vote with my money, and when I find these kind of script providers, I won't buy any of their scripts in the future.

Really guys, some of the premium scripts in here are a joke and this is the very reason why.

Rant over.

Thanks for reading.

Edited by ineu
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What do you want me to do? Handle scripting, sales, support, and run a script for thousands of hours across every different system and network possible while also attending college? Because that's what you're asking. We all do our best. We do not have support teams or sales teams or QA testers. We have ourselves and help from customers who are the ones running the scripts for thousands of hours. 

Scripting for Runescape is a gig like no other. Let's say I write a script that has high requirements to entry of 400 hours of training and quests. I am able to write the script and test it a good amount but the one constant in the botting world is bound to hit -- being banned. I now have two options, I can release the script as it is, having fixed the vast majority of bugs and issues or I can train another account up, hope it doesn't get banned before getting the requirements and end up going through the same thing. This is all while someone breathes down my back demanding the script be released because they trained an account for it and now it went to waste. Obviously I am going to choose number one. 

And to another point, the game world is constantly changing and things break that we have absolutely no control over. Jagex can up and change 10,000 IDs or shift tiles or move monsters or even make a method completely obsolete. I don't run my scripts 24/7 -- hell I barely run them at all, I don't have time to with everything else going on. We have to rely on users to report issues and yes, sometimes they have to be our testers because we just don't have the means to test at that time. That's the way this world works, and if you don't like it, leave. 

 

If you have a problem with a script and you feel it isn't be addressed properly, go and file a dispute. If your issues is valid, you'll get your money back. There's nothing to complain about here.

Edited by Assume
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Just now, Assume said:

What do you want me to do? Handle scripting, sales, support, and run a script for thousands of hours across every different system and network possible while also attending college? Because that's what you're asking. We all do our best. We do not have support teams or sales teams or QA tester. We have ourselves and help from customers who are the ones running the scripts for thousands of hours. 

This is an open letter to premium script providers that leverage their way into pocketing some small amount of subscriptions that subsequently get canceled because the script doesn't even work longer than an hour. You're obviously not one of them and I have taken my grievances up with the providers directly, but it has not been more than one. This lowers the standard of scripts that can be premium and sold to people. 

In response to your questions, I don't think it's unreasonable to run your script for longer than a couple hours while you do other things.

This is what I do, and I run into problems I wouldn't have found otherwise. 

You went and made a mountain of a molehill here.

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3 hours ago, ineu said:

I'm going to keep this short as I can but I think it's worth saying:

I work as a software developer in the server hosting industry and I can speak from experience that trying to off-load Q/A testing to your customers is immoral. The software delivered is always as-is and to leave it up to the customer to find your bugs, write detailed bug reports, and generally 'work for you' is a quick way to lose your customer base. I'm not saying being detailed when it comes to asking your customers to describe a bug to you is a bad thing but it is time consuming, and when the bugs you're currently dealing with prevent your customer from using the software, that's when we run into problems..

This paradigm is also recognizable with a lot of scripts and their script providers on this site. It seems to me that some people on this site, I won't name names, are doing the exact thing I just described. You write up your code without testing it farther than a 5-min run through, because you think, well I'm a developer, I know what I wrote is logically sound, it worked at first glance, and it's not my job to Q/A. Well guess what, you don't have a Q/A team! I'm not going to tell you what to do and how to run your business, but I want to point out to you that not only is it frustrating to have developers like this in the community that write faulty code, but it's time consuming for other people and lowers the standard of premium scripts. People pay for your code. It is YOUR responsibility to test your own code and make sure it works for longer than at least an hour, I mean come on man... If you can't do that, it would probably benefit you to hire someone that can.

I vote with my money, and when I find these kind of script providers, I won't buy any of their scripts in the future.

Really guys, some of the premium scripts in here are a joke and this is the very reason why.

Rant over.

Thanks for reading.

Q/A team with a small market like runescape scripts? That's not gonna happen, there isn't enough money for something like that.

95% of time, users report false bug reports because of a client or user based issue. They are extremely vague and there's no way to see what's wrong without a detailed report.

All premium scripts are (now) reviewed by @USA and @TRiLeZ. Furthermore, all premium scripts require a 5 hour proggy when submitting the application.

Another thing you have to consider is sometimes the scripter has no control over something breaking if its caused by Jagex. These are generally fixed by script writers in a reasonable time.

Honestly, here's how I see it as a developer: Fill out a report to see if it's a script/client/user error OR

A. Schedule an appointment and remote control user

B. Exchange countless messages that could be answered by the bug report

BTW, most bug reports take like 5 minutes to fill out. You may not be a Q/A tester, but you shouldn't expect help if you're not willing to put in some effort. Posting shit like "won't work, fix plz" doesn't help us whatsoever.

 

Besides, if you have a problem with the script, collect evidence and REPORT it. A script that keeps breaking constantly and not fixed within a reasonable time is worthy of a complaint. You may/may not qualify for a script dispute, but it most certainly raise the administrators of a scripter with poor performance.

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Scripts lose attention, deteriorate, and don't need to be reviewed or reviewed often enough because they've already had that initial approval. 
What i've personally had to deal with, and not from either you or Assume, is investing over an hour into communicating with the developer back and forth, providing more and more data, eventually identifying several bugs. At this point I turn into your Q/A guy. No one wants to do that, even though I'm happy to do a proper report and provide all the necessary data, being the first one to find multiple script-breaking bugs and then also being requested to do all the legwork in retrieving that data is when it becomes ridiculous. All that time could have been saved if the developer just ran it for longer than an hour.

Edited by ineu

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7 minutes ago, ineu said:

Scripts lose attention, deteriorate, and don't need to be reviewed or reviewed often enough because they've already had that initial approval. 
What i've personally had to deal with, and not from either you or Assume, is investing over an hour into communicating with the developer back and forth, providing more and more data, eventually identifying several bugs. At this point I turn into your Q/A guy. No one wants to do that, even though I'm happy to do a proper report and provide all the necessary data, being the first one to find multiple script-breaking bugs and then also being requested to do all the legwork in retrieving that data is when it becomes ridiculous. All that time could have been saved if the developer just ran it for longer than an hour.

I'm not saying what you're saying hasn't happened before.. However, that doesn't necessarily mean you have to be the Q/A guy. If it takes too long, record the broken script and send it to script writer with his filled out form. Sometimes the script writer does not have an account to test out the script anymore, however that is NOT your issue. In an event of a broken script, the scripter is responsible for obtaining an account if necessary and fixing it. With the information you provide, it should give the script writer enough info to fix. If the issue is still not fixed, you qualify for a script dispute. Once too many script disputes appear on a certain script, then actions take place.

Another thing, TRiBot scripts generally offer trials now these days. This enough should give you a decent amount of information if its worthy of purchasing or not.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, erickho123 said:

I'm not saying what you're saying hasn't happened before.. However, that doesn't necessarily mean you have to be the Q/A guy. If it takes too long, record the broken script and send it to script writer with his filled out form. Sometimes the script writer does not have an account to test out the script anymore, however that is NOT your issue. In an event of a broken script, the scripter is responsible for obtaining an account if necessary and fixing it. With the information you provide, it should give the script writer enough info to fix. If the issue is still not fixed, you qualify for a script dispute. Once too many script disputes appear on a certain script, then actions take place.

Another thing, TRiBot scripts generally offer trials now these days. This enough should give you a decent amount of information if its worthy of purchasing or not.

 

 

A few good points here, but one thing I would like to add is that many of the trials offered are for such a short duration that in some cases you are cheated into believing the script is at least able to function until you purchase it and get an opportunity to run it for longer. Script disputes are useful but I think the only thing I could take out of my rants which would be a good addition to the current system would be monthly or quarterly reviews by Tribot staff. There are so many premium scripts at this point though that it isn't reasonable for just two people tackle all of the scripts with the different combination of parameters. It would be a massive undertaking.

Edited by ineu

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21 minutes ago, ineu said:

A few good points here, but one thing I would like to add is that many of the trials offered are for such a short duration that in some cases you are cheated into believing the script is at least able to function until you purchase it and get an opportunity to run it for longer. Script disputes are useful but I think the only thing I could take out of my rants which would be a good addition to the current system would be monthly or quarterly reviews by Tribot staff. There are so many premium scripts at this point though that it isn't reasonable for just two people tackle all of the scripts with the different combination of parameters. It would be a massive undertaking.

TRiBot staff isn't paid for the work they do. It's all voluntary and adding more work to moderating the forum + IRL work is too much IMO. I don't think anyone is willing to pay them for reviewing scripts. You also have to account for script requirements. Not everyone have the script requirements for some scripts, and they are risking their account to review a script.

You should ask the script writer if they can increase the trial time longer if you feel it's insufficient. The trial time is to let you know how the script works, how well it works, etc. If the trial time isn't adequate enough, request the script writer to increase their time limit or don't buy their script.

There might be a feedback system in the repo in the future as well. It allow you to see users experiences with the script author in a much more organized manner. This should help decide if it's a worthy purchase or not.

Two people may not be enough to keep track of quality prem script, but we have an organized script dispute process to protect the consumer. Like I said before, after too many disputes occur, actions takes place and the script sales will be halted (scripts have been disabled before due to inadequate support/updates).

Script disputes means unsatifised customers

Unsatifised customers means less sales

Less sales means less money.

Less money means TRiLeZ no happy

TRiLeZ no happy no good

The current system is not perfect, but you definitely have options in the event of a bad purchase.

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From what i see people dont bother to read the scriptwriters post which detail all things you have to do to runs script.

And laggy internet / laptops/pcs  dont help :P

 

Also they dont use the correct bug formatting which never helps!

 

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